Apologies - I will have to drop off between 15:30 and 16:30

I have a question around fusing high level products like CDMs or ephemerides vs sharing observations.

I have to jump off for another video call. Thanks for including me in some great discussions! Cheers - Mark M

Thank you very much for joining, Mark

Glad to follow up with anyone at a later time.

‘We shouldn’t forget that it’s not just astronomers – a minority – who care about this issue. The night sky, the “vault of heaven”, is the one feature of our environment that has been shared, and wondered at, by all humanity through the ages. We should deplore anything that needlessly degrades its beauty and serenity, just as, more parochially, we don’t want tinsel or phone masts in our national parks. Martin Rees, Astronomer Royal

While I agree with this assertion … I don't hear a lot of complaining about population growth and light pollution terrestrially. If you live in a city, you don't see many stars and thus do not appreciate the night sky the same as an astronomer.

I agree with Brien on this that it is only the few raising their voices…a sad indictment of our lack of looking up

Thanks for comments Brien & Dinz. Hard to have an in-depth conversation about this on Chat!

@ Max you are so right and I would welcome the opportunity to explore more…

Thanks Dinz - and me too!… A tragedy if the heritage & wonder of the night sky is lost. RAS paper says that the night sky is now 10% brighter with space debris and satellites…

This would be a great motivating reason to vacation to the moon one day!

Help people see the problems

Working on it!

And yes, Dinz, radio astronomy is far more affected by the mega-constellations.

First space launch was in 1944!! :)

Goddard!?

German V2 test launch in summer 1944 went well above 100 km altitude....and then for about 2 minutes was the first piece of space debris

Just found this… V2 in space in 1942??

https://www.edn.com/german-rocket-is-1st-to-reach-space-october-3-1942/

15 years and a day before Sputnik 1 (??)

So that makes it 79 years since first human space activity - That makes my comparator year 1982 not 1967 (which I think makes it even more stark a comparison)

Biden, Kerry & $1T + is not a small voice, IMHO. On a scale of rebuild after the Great Depression and Marshal lPlan after WW2.

Growth (GDP) is a built in assumption. In the long run growth may cost us more in an unsustainable world, with climate change…

It depends on where you believe that space starts. The 1942 launch went to less than 100 km, and so most people would not reckon that it counts

Just to touch on the point earlier...as far as sustainability goes, I don't think it's never as straightforward as adopting a shift in public opinion.George Marshall is worth a look at, saying "Our Brains are Wired to Ignore Climate Change”, it's distant in time, distant in place, costly, uncertain, etc.. Not trying to sound like a pessimist but it's worth acknowledging that this type of human behaviour has been repeated time and time again

I agree Joshua, the doom scenario often fails to get traction as its just too big to tackle. We need to focus on the small issues that we can tackle.

I'm looking at density reductions in the thermosphere due to increasing CO2, and in high CO2 emission scenarios, you lose the effect of the solar maxima clearing out LEO, You enter a regime similar to extended maunder minimum without the CO2 effect being accounted for

the gloom and doom scenario has created a number of reactions: anger, fear or indifference. many humans live normally in the every day world getting from sunrise to sunset … just getting through the day… we talk a good talk but our everyday actions are very different - including my own…

I have to disappear to another event at 6pm, but thank you so much for such a fascinating series of discussions.

Thank you everyone! Extremely interesting discussions and talks today. Lots of food for thought

Wonderful - thank you Bob & Dinz and all the speakers!. And for the lively debate!

Thanks everyone. Great discussions!

Thanks Dinz and Bob for organising. excellent talks.